Transcript by George Bourbaki.

Dr. Pappas:

"Dr Horkel, can you tell us the story when you first came to know the PAP- IMI - Device?"

Dr. Horkel:

“I came to know the PAP-IMI - Device for the first time when a few years ago I was skiing in the mountains, whereby I had a ski accident. At that time, I was with a training Austrian team and we were skiing on a glacier. Thereby suddenly I fell into a crack which had been covered by snow. The crack was about 30 meters deep and 2 meters wide but nobody of my group knew about its existence. After struggling out of the crack again, into which I did not really fall too deep, because of my skis, I told my friends what happened. They did not believe me, however, because at this particular location never there has been a crack for years. So, all of us returned to the particular spot and found indeed a big hole in the snow. While I had capsized down in the hole with my skis up, I had lost one of my ski sticks. Now, when I bent down in order to look for my lost ski stick, I realized that the hole had a diameter of about 1.5 meters and that cold humid air was coming out of it.

Later, I discovered that I had pains in my right shoulder. With the time these pains became rather severe and continued for more than one year. Therefore, I went to see four different orthopedic doctors. But they could not help me. Three of them gave me injections, which did not help, while the fourth one said that I should get an operation, which I did not want. During all this time, I could drive my car only with my left hand. Finally I heard of the PAP-IMI - Device, twice the same day. Once in the morning, once in the evening. So I decided that I should have the PAP- IMI-treatments. They were very successful because already after the first treatment I could drive my car with both hands again which by the way required a lot of force, because the gearbox was rather difficult to shift. It became evident that I could move both of my hands again - without effort and without pains! So this appeared like a miracle to me. This was my first experience with the PAP-IMI - Device and I was very astonished and surprised because of its efficiency.

Dr. Pappas:

"So this case was actually a sports injury one!”

Dr.Horkel:

“Yes. In general, I have very good results with sport injuries, f.i. X- Syndromes (medical term) with the ankle. For such injuries, the device of Pappas works extremely well. The soccer team of Guttenburg in Sweden uses such a PAP-IMI - Device, according to Professor Ockerman. After training and after a soccer game, everybody in the team uses this machine and the results are fantastic.

Dr. Pappas:

“Do the soccer player use the machine also before the training?”

Dr. Horkel:

“Yes, especially if players have previous injuries. As far as I know these soccer people have very good results with the device.”

Dr. Pappas:

“Dr. Horkel, can you tell us something about your results in general and what do you think are the best results which you obtained with the PAP- IMI-device up to now.”

Dr. Horkel:

"As I told you already, I came to know PAP-IMI some years ago, when I used it for myself. I then used it for my sister-in-law, who later decided to buy one of these machines for herself. So this gave me a chance that I could gain further experiences with this machine myself. At this time I knew very little about the principles involved. However the situation changed when I received various papers from Dr. Pappas in which he outlined some ideas with regard to the theoretical background of the device. I should perhaps mention that already as a young boy I was interested in astrophysics and magnetism which started my curiosity in this kind of therapy. Finally, I decided to buy also one of these PAP-IMI-Devices. As soon as I had the Device I realized that I can use it very well in my medical praxis. Now, that I have this machine of my own for almost one year, it appears that sometimes I get amazing results, sometimes no results at all. I guess, maybe some of patients are willing to cooperate with my machine, some others do not."

Dr. Pappas:

“Did you experience any side effects?”

Dr.Horkel:

“No, I did not notice negative side effects. But since you are asking this question already, I would like to tell you an astonishing case witch, on one hand, showed an unbelievable and miraculous good result, while, on the other hand, there occurred an incident whereby you will have to tell me whether this was a negative side effect or not. This was a case of a 62 year old woman. Years ago, she got trapped on an open ski lift which suddenly stopped due to a mechanical problem caused by a storm, while the temperature was 20 C degrees below zero. Due to this incident she got anesthesia and paralysis on the right side of her face while also some sort of neuralgia occurred on one of her hands because the storm. After 40 minutes of exposure to the storm her whole face was frozen while the right side of her face, which has been exposed to the freezing winds was paralyzed. Obviously, for this patient this was a very sad event, because it became evident later that medically nothing could be done for her.

Ten years later, this patient came into my praxis and told me the whole story of how she got this paralysis when years ago she was skiing in the mountains. I then told her about the PAP-IMI - Device and the possibility that she might try it. She immediately consented to it. So, I put her at the machine set at low power. Already after the third pulse she exclaimed: "Oh, I feel something in my face! I feel my skin!” As for myself I could see that there were small facial contractions which followed the same rhythm as the pulses of the PAP-IMI-machine. The next day, we made a similar exposure of ten minutes with the machine again set at low power. The third day she came into my praxis and said to me: “Look-watch at me!” And she lifted both eyebrows, which she has been unable to do for the last ten years. The whole thing appeared like magic. I was extremely astonished! In the following she came to my praxis together with her sister, thereby requesting further therapy. So she received the additional therapy. This had the consequence that on the right side of her face she could feel things for the fist time after years. It looked as if the nerve system in her face became restored.

The following night, however, there occurred an incidence. During the day she had a fight with her daughter. The same night, I received a phone call from the daughter telling me that her mother had a stroke in her home and that she had brought her to a local hospital where she was put under intensive care. After about 10 hours of intensive care the mother recovered again. The doctors in the hospital later confirmed that she had a stroke. As for myself, I am unable to evaluate, weather this stroke was caused by the treatment with the PAP-IMI-device or due to the emotional trouble the patient had with her daughter on the same day.

Dr. Pappas:

" I can assure you that I have never heard of a case where somebody had a stroke after using PAP-IMI. This includes cases, as this one here, with two or three treatments at low power level as well as daily treatments with high power and for much longer periods of time either on the head or at the face. And I would like to assure you that I am familiar with more than 10,000 medical cases of treatments of patients with my machines. On the other hand, it is quite well known that strokes can be caused by severe stress. Thus in the particular case, I personally believe that the intensive stress following the fight with her daughter was the cause of the stroke and not the low power treatment with the PAP-IMI-device .

Dr. Horkel:

"After this particular incident, I became somewhat conservative in using this device. However, I have to admit that I was very astonished yesterday when I saw Dr. Pappas, sitting in my praxis and having a metal chain around his head, thereby treating his head with explosions of the type fire works do."

Dr. Pappas:

“Can you please tell us a little more about the successful part of the last case?”

Dr. Horkel:

“Yes. I have to admit, at least this part was a big success: After these few and rather weak treatments she can move the muscles of her face."

Dr. Pappas:

"Did this lady also recover from the consequences of her stroke?”

Dr. Horkel:

“Yes, she did. She is again in perfect health. However may I tell you of an other very interesting case. One of my patients is an older man, 72 years of age. He used to be a pianist. But for more than two years he could not play the piano any more because he had completely cramped fingers, which he could not move. Thus he could no more play the piano and he had great difficulties for holding a pen. He was unable to use his hands in a reasonable way. So one day, this old man came into my praxis. By using the machine of Pappas we obtained extremely good results: After four treatments only, the old man wrote me a rather long letter in an old German handwriting with letters so small, that I needed glasses in order to read the letter. Now this particular person can move all his fingers again and he can even drive a car again. Obviously he is very happy. Before the doctors had suggested that he should have an operation. They had told him that if he falls down, he would break his fingers. But at the time the patient was of the opinion that he prefers to leave his hands and fingers as they are. However now, after the treatment with the PAP-IMI-device he can move his hands and fingers as before.”

Dr. Pappas:

“How did you use the machine on this patient?”

Dr. Horkel:

"I just placed his hands in the middle of the ring.”

Dr. Pappas:

“Did you place his hands close to the ring or to its center?"

Dr. Horkel:

" Close to the ring- in both directions at 90 degrees. I can tell you also about a very interesting experience with a 32 year old patient who had breast cancer. I diagnosed the tumor by ultra sound. Also an ex-ray was made, so that there were no questions about the diagnosis. The tumor had a diameter of about 1.8 cm. Already, before I had treated the particular patient with the machine of Pappas against arthritis, whereby quite satisfactory results were obtained. Because of this previous experience my patient asked me if I could try to treat her cancer also with this machine. I responded that I can not, because with this machine of Pappas I have no particular experience to treat cancer. I told my patient also, that professionally this would be dangerous for me because of my lack of experience. In the following my patient, however, gave me a phone call and requested to get such a treatment because she was extremely eager to get one. At that time she had only one week before she would get her breast operation. So I told my patient to come to my praxis where I gave her a paper with all the information about breast operations and what possibly could happen by a treatment with the Pappas device. She agreed to sign a paper, in which she assumes all responsabilities for this treatment whereupon we started the treatment. This treatment was performed only three times, each with an interval of one day in between. These treatments were at full power and with about 2000 pulses on the breast and along the axis of the tumor, which originally as I said had a diameter of about 1.8 cm.

What appeared interesting was the fact, that up to the second treatment the patient did not feel anything about it. But following the second treatment she suddenly said to me: “I feel something inside." Normally with cancer people do not feel anything. Only if one touches a particular location, people feel this. But there is no pain. Here the patient suddenly felt something inside. In the following I made a measurement by ultra sound. The carcinoma had become smaller by about 0.8 cm. That means that the diameter of the tumor had reduced to about 1 cm and it had a sharp definition, which was more like an F-bone and not like a cancer tissue. At the same time, the lymph nodes remained the same but became a little bit harder. After the patient had her breast operation the surgeon told me that the operation was very easy to perform because the tumor could be taken out of the breast tissue almost without cutting, that is by the hands. This is the type of operation which I personally prefer and which I have done for the last 19 years: No scissors and no scalpels, just by using my fingers because this avoids cutting millions of cells which then can spread all over the body and form metastases. So, without knowing this surgeon did just the same as I did it for all these years. After the operation, it appeared that also the lymph nodes had changed. One lymph node only contained degenerated cells, while the other had become very compact and catamnes'tic. Since then almost a year has passed . Up to now no metastases have appeared. The patient is very happy and I hope everything will work out well for her.

This was the only cancer treatment, which I did up to now. The reason is that I am a little bit afraid, that something might go wrong. Actually people might come at me by saying that metastases which appeared are due to a treatment with the PAP-IMI-machine, which is some sort of statement which I can not disprove. But if people are willing to take the whole responsibility for such a treatment I am willing to go along with that."

Dr. Pappas:

“Indeed, I recall several similar cases reported to me concerning tumors which after PAP IMI treatments were already shrunk, detached, though still trapped in the patients body and ready to be rejected or removed.

Can you tell us which cases can be treated the best with such a machine?"

Dr. Horkel:

"It appears best suited for diseases like arthritis, polyarthritis and rheumatism."

Dr. Pappas:

“When you treat rheumatism, do you treat simultaneously the liver?"

Dr. Horkel:

“Yes, always. Also in case of skin diseases! Always the liver at the same time.”

Dr. Pappas:

“Are you successful also with psoriasis?”

Dr. Horkel:

“Yes! Also with neurodermatitis. I had a case with a young girl who was scratching herself for years, so that one could see the bones. It looked as if she had a bad accident. So in my praxis we gave her more than 20 treatments with the machine of Pappas. After 10 treatments the particular spot was not so red any more. From then on the itchiness was reduced from treatment to treatment. Now the whole problem is over. The patient feels fine. The open bones are protected now by new skin. The skin, however, has a different color. If the girl goes into the sun this particular area of skin does not get brown, it remains white. But there is no more itching and the girl is very grateful and feels well. Also, the disease did not spread to other parts of her body”.

Dr. Pappas:

“What machine setting do you use, when you want to treat the liver?”

Dr. Horkel:

“It is a little difficult for me, because the adjustment of my machine was not right. So for a couple of times I counted about 800 to1200 pulses, two, at the most three pulses per second. I personally think that it is better if there is a little time between the individual pulses. In my opinion, if the pulses are applied too fast, the system does not work too well. Two pulses per second appear to be enough. In most cases no more! By this way, a certain warmness develops. It gets warm and people like it. And they feel a little movement in their body. A particular warmness the patients have never experienced. The same does not appear neither in radiotherapy, nor by treatments with short waves, microwaves, hot water, or the sun. This temperature is created within the cells. And the patients feel and appreciate it very much.”

Dr. Pappas:

"Do you have any experiences with patients having tentonitis?”

Dr. Horkel:

" One patient will be alright, the other no. I do not know why? Maybe tendonitis produced by different causes. If tendonitis is caused by psychological reasons, the machine of Pappas probably does not work. If tendonitis , however, is caused by a mechanical inflammation, such as one obtained by scuba diving, then the machine of Pappas probably works.”

Dr. Pappas:

"What are your experiences with migraines?”

Dr. Horkel:

“It depends from where the migraine comes. If it is a migraine from the togiminos, it starts from here (points at the front of the head) and I will not treat it, because I do not like to use the machine of Pappas in this area. However, if it is a migraine from the back of the head , I am willing to treat this migraine with Passas machine.”

Dr. Pappas:

"Mrs. Bauer, it seems that you have also experiences with this machine."

Mrs. Bauer:

"My teeth are of poor quality. So all my life I had problems with my teeth. So one day my last dentist- he was actually the president of the dental association- said to me: 'With the work on your teeth I could go in retirement.' Then one day this dentist went really in retirement. Before that he gave one more check on my teeth, whereby he identified by ex-ray that on the left side I had a cavity, while in addition I had a serious gum problem caused by the receding of my gums, which apparently was due to the fact, that I did not clean my teeth properly and did not go to the hygienist, as often as I should. This was around September or October of last year, at which time I could feel pulsation's in my tooth due to the cavity. In January my husband and I decided to go to Germany whereby I knew, that with the atmospheric change I would have problems. So I made quickly an appointment with a new dentist, whereby new ex-rays were made. To my great surprise the new dentist said to me, that my gums were in perfect order. The only logical explanation I could find, was the fact, that for many years I had suffered neuralgia on one side of the face. Only recently I had been using the device of Pappas in order to treat this neuralgia in my face. Thereby quite accidentally I treated also my gums which got irradiated at the same time. When checking the old and the new ex-rays precisely it appeared that within a period of only one month perfect new tissue has grown around my gums The only answer to this unexpected event could be attributed to the device of Pappas."

Dr. Pappas:

"It might be interesting to you, since I am using my machine on myself- I have not visited a dentist for the last 15 years.”

Dr. Horkel:

“How did you meet Mr. Pappas?”

Mrs. Bauer:

“In the middle of the ocean - we have a common friend - Roberto!"

Dr. Horkel:

"I could tell you an other case of an elder lady of 60 to 70 years. For 20 years she suffered from very severe polyarthritis On the ex-rays one just could see her bones, nothing else. So I treated her with the machine of Pappas and after some time she became very well. At the end of the treatment I told her, that she should not work too hard the next week. However she disregarded my instructions and worked hard in the garden because it was going to rain. When two days later she had done her work and the rain started to fall, the old lady was still physically all right, with the exception, that she had some difficulties in moving her fingers. But practically all her pains were gone. In such a case obviously the bones of the body are in such a shape that they almost glued to each other. The general appearance of the person was actually terrible looking, but the pains were gone.”

Mr. Bauer:

“I should tell perhaps also the story of my father-in-law George. Over the years he had become severe rheumatism, which stopped him from sleeping in a bed, because there was no way that he could be rolled to the side or to the back. So he spent all his time in a chair for thick people. Since he had great pains he consumed whatever painkillers could be found in Germany, Canada and the U.S.A.. Nothing helped really, even morphine. Now, after treatment with a device of Pappas, he is so much better, so that he can even sleep n a bed again.

Dr. Pappas:

Mr Horkel and Mr.and Mrs Bauer, I am very grateful for this interview.

Starnberg
End of May 1999